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Julius's avatar

First, I think this review is really good. I enjoyed reading it—thanks for sharing it. It wouldn't have surprised me to see this amongst the finalists.

But I'll jump into what I hope is constructive criticism because I think that's what you're looking for. Note that I haven't read the book so I'm not making any claims about the accuracy of your representation of it.

I read your comment so I know you've already heard this, but I'll still add my vote that I did not like the fact that the intro was misleading. For me, it was probably the #1 detraction (but keep in mind, I think the review is really good so don't weigh this too heavily). The intro made it much better, so when you took it away, naturally, the review as a whole got worse. It reminded me of the movie Fargo, which starts by saying it's based on a real movie. This made the deaths feel much more impactful because we've been desensitized to deaths in fictional stories. But when I later found out it wasn't real, that took something away from it for me. Similar thing here.

I know other people mentioned this as well, but it also dragged a little in the middle. I think just some extra tightening up and summarizing would have made the difference. Or perhaps find a way to be a little engaging. Maybe even a picture or an aside or something would have been a nice break (see Scott's first two points here: https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/02/20/writing-advice/). It's possible that varying the style a little more would have helped.

One thing that makes reviewing this book tricky is there was a lack of interesting ideas presented. I want to be clear that I think these are IMPORTANT ideas and an IMPORTANT topic. But none of the ideas were interesting in the sense that I said: "Wow, I've never thought of it like that before". None of the ideas surprised me. None changed the way I think about the world.

I don't know if there was more evidence in the book or not, but I thought there wasn't much evidence presented for the notion that the seeds of abuse are planted early in life. Was there no discussion of genetic susceptibility? I would think there would be a lot of variation here, but I interpreted what you were saying as "It's mostly/all nurture and it's nurture in the early years". Maybe I misinterpreted though. I was also left wondering, if the sessions don't work, what's the plan then? Sadly, maybe no one has that answer though.

Overall, I thought your review was great. I'm specifically listed the criticisms above in the hopes of being constructive. Your writing flows really well and and I think you a great job.

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TM's avatar

Some quick thoughts on the book, as presented:

a) I found the presentation of the abusers quite one-dimensional. In my understanding, the book says: The abusers are 'healthy individuals' (not explicitely, but implicitely), they are in full control of their behaviour, and they are just egoistic A. Egoistic A. with a talent for manipulation. They will mistreat you, as long as you allow them and stop, if you don't. Therefore, forget everything about where their behaviour comes from, stop making excuses for them and instead give them constly incentives to change.

I understand why B Civil calls that a caricature / cartoon characters. I don't think this is a full, adequate or even true description. Nevertheless, I think it's an important point, and one that the victims of abusers need to hear. Or in a broader sense, one that is worth reading for everybody who usually is more busy with the more complex origins of such type of bad behaviour.

b) To the extend to which my understanding of the books' presentation as above is accurate, I find it both oversimplified, and I think it doesn't really hold scrutiny. To my understanding, many of Bancroft's 'clients' are just out of jail for their behaviour. That's hardly prove of a cool cost-benefit calculation. Or of 'no consequences'. Also, I'm not fully sure if I remember that correctly, but the fact that different kids with similar backgrounds develop very different reactions to this and not all become abusers, would hardly be an argument for the background not playing a relevant role.

c) When I was reading the review I was flabbergasted by the idea, that before Bancroft's programme most similar efforts would work *only* with the abusers, and *not even talk* to the victims to cross-check on the potential changes ... let alone help and support *them*. I think changing this approach this is the revolutionary aspect of the book. Everything that follows - e.g. the oversimplification of abusers and the message to the victims - is a result from that context and approach. I didn't read the book, so I'm interested to hear your opinion. Even less do I know what those kind of programmes were like in the 70ies and 80ies of last century.

To be continued (maybe) ...

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